ADSL3, ADSL4 And Beyond

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ADSL3, ADSL4 And Beyond

Post by ForumAdmin » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:40 pm

For those of you who weren't invited to the latest Telstra briefing this is interesting:

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Copper quality

Post by larrywsm » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:40 pm

This may be well and good if Telstra had over the years had maintained the quality of its copper connections. I know that in my area the system is a youngish 25year old or less. However, the rebuilding and expansion of the area means that the lines has been cut, re spliced that many times and re routed hither and yonder you are lucky to get any where near ADSL speed on a ADSL2+ circuit next to the exchange. When you look into any inspection pit it is uaually half full of water with corroded connections etc. Heaven help those areas who have very old copper circuits.

larrywsm :(

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Post by Affinity » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:41 pm

Interesting, but what does it really mean?

Does Telstra want to get back to a complete stranglehold monopoly on every service? That wouldn't bother me if they charged fair wholesale rates and were not anti-competitive.

It should be a whole lot better if everyone could attain full potential from their copper pair wire without customers having to pay through the nose due to an unfair monopolistic pricing environment.

So, do we have ACCC declare each and every 'service' and regulate the pricing AND force Telstra to carry out the required works to move this country forward in terms of broadband speeds for every phone line and every potential service, managing it for the good of the consumer and not the good of Telstra [ie ripping us all off with price gouging principles].

This would put a stop to DSLAM investment by other providers, but it would allow 100% standardization over time so that every piece of equipment is optimal in providing the best end-user solution for everyone.

I've always wondered about the effectiveness of needing duplicated infrastructure on such basic services. What a waste it was to cable both Optus and Foxtel TV in some areas and have nothing in other areas.

The latest LSS ... ItemId/142 situation is probably going to see an explosion of DSLAM 'opportunities' now which will go against the possibility of getting the best out of a DSM technology solution...

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Post by Knight-no-7 » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:54 pm

Looking impressive for the future..

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Post by reg » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:39 pm

From what i have read you can only get the speeds thay are talking about if you live next door to the extange most of us will only get adls2+ speeds @ best so i dont see this happing its just Telstra blowing there trupet again . :lol: To add alot of the copper lines need replacing as well as thy are fulling apart where is all the $$$ to do that and if thy did start replacing the copper why wouldn't you replace it with fiber?

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Post by RagnaR » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:21 pm

didn't some greek guy in Melbourne in the last few days come up with some algorithm that does the same thing pretty much?

Anyway, seems a few years off yet, sadly :(


Post by blloyd » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:44 pm

Well said, Affinity.


Australia would not need competition at the wholesale level of Internet Service Provision if the network were separately administered and universally shared by a not-for-profit public company and/or government instrument, whose incorporate objects would be to impartially manage and improve telecommunications infrastructure in this country (without doling out ludicrously fat pay cheques to politically clamorous CEOs), where surpluses go back into the company and the network and infrastructure improvement and new technologies. This would create a level wholesale playing field and vitally ensure that competition at the retail level remains possible.

Australia Post is one such success story. Why not Internet & Telephony services?

The article says:
However to achieve its full potential DSM would require every copper pair in a multipair cable to be operated and managed by one DSL operator.
Structural separation. They should have done it. Now that they haven't, we'll start to see the complications down the track for this and other infrastructure and technology decisions. We'll see inflationary pressures on prices & costs which will flow to the end user. Either that, or decisions for improvement simply won't proceed on a commercial cost-benefit basis (because the privatised monopoly will wants cost plus margins from its wholesale customers that the market, the ACCC, and end-customers will not find reasonable).

If Telstra doesn't like regulation, let it divest itself of its monopoly position by structurally separating. Otherwise, they should just cut the noise and assume the responsibility (that a monopoly position demands) for delivering a better broadband outcome for Australia.


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Post by davewantsmoore » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:59 pm

blloyd wrote:<rant>...</rant>
well said yourself :-)

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Post by Affinity » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:07 pm

Australia Post is a reasonably fair example of separation; however, the Australia Post shops are rapidly encroaching into areas that one might think would be better elsewhere.... they have shop fronts and they are not afraid to push any product through it if they think it can be profitable. Personally I would prefer them to stick with their core product or at least limit the scope of products available to be within a reasonable range.

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Post by echang01 » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:13 pm

i believe EFtel are going to release VDSL as well

frontpage whirlpool........
What's Open 24hours in Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra, Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, all over Australia?

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Post by Affinity » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:24 pm

echang01 wrote:i believe EFtel are going to release VDSL as well

frontpage whirlpool........
Yes, that's interesting -- I wonder about the deal involving PIPE and their fibre to 180 exchanges. It would also be interesting to know what those 180 exchanges are today [let alone the 70 that are the initial Eftel target] and what plans for fibre to other exchanges in the future.

And I also wonder about plans for the VDSL product from Eftel being wholesaled by them and/or PIPE networks.

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Post by ForumAdmin » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:41 pm

My interest in following the deliberations of the committee is to gauge the impact that a much faster service over copper would have on slowing down/indefinitely postponing the FTTH concepts being floated around.

I realise, as does everyone else, that the distance limitations don't make it a perfect solution but the fact that it runs over the current copper (and the cost of replacing some of the current sub-standard copper is trivial in comparison to a completely different roll out) means 'immediate' availability at very low additional cost.

Having said that - such a copper solution won't compare to a new fibre solution but it gives a whole lot more 'life' to the old copper network.

You have to remember that it was only some 25 years ago that a couple of post grad students doing a work experience assignment for Bell Labs in Chicago demonstrated, to the amazement of all concerned, that they could reliably drive data at 2 mbps x 2 mbps over a one an a half mile copper line that up to the time of their demonstration was considered to be maxed out at 64 kbps.

Sure, it's doubtful that 100 mbps x 100 mbps speeds will ever be achieved by many residential users but, and its a big but, there are an awful lot of residential users and businesses sitting on top of CBD and other close CBD exchanges to whom faster speeds over a PSTN line would be of great interest.

Telstra gets to make more money for a longer time out of infrastructure it already owns and the ADSL2 DSLAM roll outs of other companies may well need expensive retrofits - you can be sure Telstra will use every last millimeter of advantage it can get if this technology delivers anything near its practical potential.

....and it's not going to be too long to see whether this will become possible in Australia.

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Post by bruceee » Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:40 pm

Would be good to see provider's get adsl2 right before setting off on another goose chase.

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Post by blackduck30 » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:24 pm

well it is all well and good to be looking at faster and fast internet but I really think they need to be concentrating on getting there current networks of ADSL 2+ stable and reliable first. If ISP's can not handle the current system and technology now what chances have they of embracing anything new.
Take our current ADSL2+ that is offered with speeds of up to 24MB/s. This is really a lot of rubbish in the whole and has been the biggest advertising hype i have come across. ISP's are promising this super fast connection speeds but when you read the fine print all they are really saying is you should get at least 1.5MB/s even then that is not a firm commitment. This is not shouted out in any of the TV or other advertisements you see across the country is it ? and why would they, it wouldn't make it sound as attractive as they make it out to be.
Take my connection for example, I am less than 500M from the exchange as the crow fly's and just under 700M as the cable routes, have very healthy sync rates but my connection is lucky to hit 14MB/s on a good day and is never sustained.
I just can not wait to see the empty promises that are thrown out with a 100MB/s connection advertising, It may just win me a new home theater system of Australia's funniest home videos.
Until they can get sustained reliable speeds out of ADSL2+ they will have next to no chance of selling me or sucking me into a new unproven technology.


Post by xanthon » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:00 pm

I'm probably way out of line but why is anyone wasting time and money on cabling when the air is so low maintenance? Why not just forget Telstra and grab some airwaves?

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