Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

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bmgoau
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Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by bmgoau » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:35 pm

have a question concerning Exetels off peak unlimited plans and the new invitation only Z/ULINCTEL++ plan.

What does "unlimited" mean to Exetel? It rarely (ever?) means really unlimited, i have heard the number 86 GB thrown around a lot, but im not sure if that's related.

So my question: To what degree are these plans unlimited? and Can you back that up with a link/documentation ?

I can't seem to find anything concerning what constitutes unlimited on Exetel's site.

ryanb
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by ryanb » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:58 pm

bmgoau wrote:What does "unlimited" mean to Exetel? It rarely (ever?) means really unlimited, i have heard the number 86 GB thrown around a lot, but im not sure if that's related.
Unrelated.
bmgoau wrote:So my question: To what degree are these plans unlimited? and Can you back that up with a link/documentation ?

I can't seem to find anything concerning what constitutes unlimited on Exetel's site.
No one really knows yet. Some people say you should go for it, but there are others like this guy who is an admin here but doesn't actually work for Exetel trying to scare people into not downloading too much; ie:
CoreyPlover wrote: While this may be *allowed* under the terms and conditions of your plans, do you also realise that Exetel are also *allowed* to terminate your service at any time? If the unlimited plans prove to be infeasible due to high serial downloaders, I know what I would do to fix it...
.

sparkyboy767
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by sparkyboy767 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:32 pm

ryanb wrote:No one really knows yet. Some people say you should go for it, but there are others like this guy who is an admin here but doesn't actually work for Exetel trying to scare people into not downloading too much; ie:
CoreyPlover wrote: While this may be *allowed* under the terms and conditions of your plans, do you also realise that Exetel are also *allowed* to terminate your service at any time? If the unlimited plans prove to be infeasible due to high serial downloaders, I know what I would do to fix it...
It would be really good if we could get some confirmation from Exetel on this. You can't say it's "unlimited" and then disconnect users for utilising their "unlimited" connection. You're either unlimited or you're not. Anything in between is just misleading and bound to cause problems and resentment...

jubba
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by jubba » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:27 pm

Look my interpretation is unlimited is completely unlimited. Corey is not exetel staff hence what he says is not necessarily exetel policy.
I don't think exetel disconnect you though if the plans end up being more costly than they anticipated then they may drop the plans.
I'd advice you to read the terms and conditions and acceptable use policies and make up your own mind on whether this is the right plan for you.

bmgoau
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by bmgoau » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:31 pm

The following is an except from Exetels Acceptable use policy. It makes a direct mention of "uncharged" plans but no, i repeat no, mention of an acceptable use policy on "unlimited" plans.

Exetel reserves the right in their contract to disconnect you for any reason they choose (all ISP's reserve this right, its quite normal). So it would be best to err on the side of caution. They might call you an "excessive user" or say that a group of users are having an "adversely impact on network performance".

That being said, i really wish they would explicitly state the fair use policy as regards to unlimited plans, not just uncharged plans.

http://www.exetel.com.au/a_acceptable_use.php

9. Downloads in the Off Peak period
o 9.1) These conditions apply from 1st December 2009 until further notice for residential plans that include “uncharged” time periods.
+ a) Exetel will endeavour to provide sufficient internet bandwidth between the hours of 8 am to 12 midnight to avoid congestion during those hours 365/366 (leap year) days per year.
+ b) In the event that any Customer downloads more than any included allowance in any calendar month, Exetel will charge the excess usage at the stated rates. No charges apply to off peak downloads for plans that have Uncharged downloads in off peak.
+ c) Exetel may at any time change or cancel the time periods during which downloads by a Customer will not be counted towards the quota for downloads under the Customer's Service plan or modify the amount of downloads permitted for a Customer so long as the Customer's Service plan is complied with.
+ d) For all plans that have an “uncharged” off peak period Exetel will deem any individual customer who downloads more than three times the average of all other customers on these types of plans in any period as “unfair users” and will ask such customers to move to another Exetel plan or to move to another provider. The maximum usage allowed in the off peak period each month will be displayed in the User Facilities but will never be less than 60 gbs per month.
What does the ACCC say on the matter?
ISPs advertising unlimited connections need to have a reasonable expectation of being able to provide this service. Advertising unlimited internet services to attract customers and later imposing limits may be misleading or deceptive.

ExtremeDavo
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by ExtremeDavo » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:47 am

So if we all team together and download 6TB per month, we're all cool :wink:

I personally believe unlimited should be "unlimited" to a point. You should be able to download 10, 100, even 200gb per month...but if you're constantly abusing the network and downloading max line speed during offpeak every single day for months in a row without fail, I guess they should have the right to say you're unprofitable and are "Abusing the network".

If you don't take Exetel for a ride, then everything should be fine! Would also like to hear an official statement please.

CoreyPlover
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by CoreyPlover » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:55 pm

ryanb wrote:Some people say you should go for it, but there are others like this guy who is an admin here but doesn't actually work for Exetel trying to scare people into not downloading too much
Who says "you should go for it" and why are you putting words into my mouth? I am not trying to "scare" but instead trying to "educate".

The previous AUP implied that 89GB per month was "acceptable". Other threads on this forum link to a Whirlpool thread showing a user that was about to download 250GB for a third month running that had their service discontinued by Exetel for commercial reasons. This gives an idea of the extremes of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" usage. It is not a threat, but simple fact to say "download more than 89GB at your own peril". More accurately, the more you download (specifically, the more you download in excess of this guidepost of 89GB) the more likely you are to bring attention to yourself and be deemed an non-viable customer.

In short, I agree wholeheartedly with ExtremeDavo's comments that "If you don't take Exetel for a ride, then everything should be fine". I do not think that Exetel will issue any official statement. In fact, I hope that they don't issue one. It has the capacity to open floodgates for heavy downloaders by giving them express permission to download massive quantities and this could easily reduce the quality of the service for everyone else
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

bmgoau
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by bmgoau » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:12 pm

Hi Corey,

I think the problem is that Exetel DONT mention their policy with regard to unlimited plans in their acceptable use policy page: http://www.exetel.com.au/a_acceptable_use.php. But they DO explicitly mention 'uncharged' plans. The two are very different.

So what the community wants from exetel is just some clarification. What is 'acceptable use' for unlimited plans? Where is the line?

Now you'll say: "Just don't abuse the network, be reasonable with your downloads" and as you quoted: "Don't take exetel for a ride".

I agree with you. It's well within our ability as customers (and as rational human beings) to know when we are abusing the system. Downloading HD movies non stop 24/7 is abusing the system. Checking emails, browsing facebook and maybe downloading some music is not.

However, that being said:
Websters disction defines 'unlimited' as the following:
1 : lacking any controls : unrestricted <unlimited access>
2 : boundless, infinite <unlimited possibilities>
So the question is, does Exetel agree with that definition, or does it have its own? And if so, what is it specifically?

-------------------------------------------------

Now some other points.

1. Why did you delete your original post in this thread? I'm not trying to call you out, im just curious, you had good info. In any case what did removing it accomplish? Especially since you are quoted in future posts?

2. You said "I am not trying to "scare" but instead trying to "educate". I agree with you here, however you must understand that you appear to be a bit of a troll sometimes. Its not specifically what you say, but how you say it. I'm not sure if people have told you on here before, or privately, but you do come across as if you are constantly annoyed at everyone and everything. You're an Admin, admittedly you spend a lot of time answering silly questions, I work in support too and i can understand how frustrating it can get. But I never let my feelings come across even subliminally to my customers. If you sometimes feel like you're 'protecting territory' like some admins on other forums do, I suggest you remember that you are a volunteer and that there are other ways to spend ones time. That being said, I am thankful that you do spend your spare time helping people, it shows good character.

3. You mentioned: The previous AUP implied that 89GB per month was "acceptable"... . That entire paragraph was 100% correct and I agree with all your points. It does give one such as myself a good idea of 'where the line is' so to speak. Moving on... you mention "It has the capacity to open floodgates..." which I also agree with. I am definitely thinking now that publishing a specific number that constitutes 'abuse' would be a bad idea.

But. And yes, there is always a but. Exetel should not label it unlimited then. They should do estimations of what kind of quotas they can support based on their IP prices and advertise those. Unlimited is a misnomer. Scroll up to my mention of the ACCC's policy for another way to put this.

Really it all comes down to semantics... what does unlimited mean? Does it mean unlimited? or something else? Should the word unlimited be used if its not really really unlimited?

CoreyPlover
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by CoreyPlover » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:41 pm

bmgoau wrote:So what the community wants from exetel is just some clarification. What is 'acceptable use' for unlimited plans? Where is the line?
I don't think you are going to receive an answer to this from Exetel. And I think people should recognise this and stop asking.

Setting a "line" is an incredibly risky thing because there is always a subset of the community hellbent on stretching the rules to their limit to the disadvantage of others
bmgoau wrote:So the question is, does Exetel agree with that definition, or does it have its own? And if so, what is it specifically?
"Unlimited" *can* simply be defined to mean "without a fixed limit" but I do not think that is Exetel's intention. Rather, there are posts that imply a goal of provide users a service with which they never have to worry about excess usage, charges or shaping (with the proviso that they do not abuse it). To me, this is Exetel's intention is providing "unlimited" plans.
bmgoau wrote:1. Why did you delete your original post in this thread? I'm not trying to call you out, im just curious, you had good info. In any case what did removing it accomplish? Especially since you are quoted in future posts?
Which post? This one here? That was simply a different thread that ryanb quoted from and was a response to a user who claimed to be nearing their 89GB acceptable usage limit on the 5th day of the month (which to me is quite clearly unacceptable usage).
bmgoau wrote:2. You said "I am not trying to "scare" but instead trying to "educate". I agree with you here, however you must understand that you appear to be a bit of a troll sometimes
I prefer to think of myself as an Eagle Scout...with random bouts of Jekyl and Hyde in me. PM me to discuss further if you wish. I always attempt to answer posts in a relatively objective manner so welcome any insights or opinions you (or others) care to share. 6,000 posts can take their toll on anyone really.
bmgoau wrote:But. And yes, there is always a but. Exetel should not label it unlimited then....Really it all comes down to semantics... what does unlimited mean? Does it mean unlimited? or something else? Should the word unlimited be used if its not really really unlimited?
Agreed. I suspect it is a balancing act between "simple terminology and acceptable usage policies" vs "more accurate but non-standard terminology which might convey unease and apprehension".
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

David R
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by David R » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:09 am

I wouldnt get carried away with definitions of 'no limit = unlimited', just be astute and study the website and blog pages of the kind owners' of Exetel carefully.

Most Exetel connections are said to be on 'ADSL1'; Exetel have an ARPU say perhaps close to '$50.00/user' ie. including ADSL1-&-2+ users; ..dont then forget e.g. those '8192/384 subscriptions'- subscribed popularly for $65.00 and provide merely a "'6GB's' bandwidth" to the customer and network - important background to grasp. The input costs behind ADLS1 are priced extremely high resulting in a mix of products which does nothing to support unlimited plans.

Exetel will then obtain the best price they can on the more flexible side of variable costs/contracts to increase bandwidth supply, combined with traffic generated from the local 'cache', this all goes to the fall in bandwidth costs a general halving per-annum. But. those reductions inevitably soon are cancelled out as the average in data use creeps up.

So how far can unlimited = no limit then be pushed in the end?? I would say one has to look at the ADSL plans tables.

The latest table, it has Peak range plans at 90 gbytes-, down to a lowly 6 gbytes mentioned above. This invites a 'medial' subscription to Exetel figure approaching about "40-48/gbytes pm" over time, and doubtfully would get to much higher - accounting for the number of people who are low end or remain on old/grandfathered plans. SO and with that.. we will never see an Off Peak support a limit that can realistically be greater than 2/2.5 x that"48 gbytes" figure at the very max.

So with a little logic and some easy maths, unlimited?; It is hard to conceive it capable of a size/designation >120 gbytes within 'Exetel' (2.5 x 48gb, downloaded on any 'regular basis') and could just as reasonably be capped at "96gb". For the 95%+ of users. Still, assigning it any number would detract from its appeal.

Other ISPs, with notably very different structures to Exetel, make (some) people think unlimited equates universally with 'hundreds of gig's'. However, what may be true for those three, 'large ISPs', does not necessarily carry to 'Exetel'. . But here is hoping there lies a point, some point maybe in the future, Exetel supply plans '500- to-XXXX'Gig. :lol:
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Ravenous
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Re: Z/ULINCTEL++ and other Unlimited plans question

Post by Ravenous » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:07 am

bmgoau wrote:Exetel DONT mention their policy with regard to unlimited plans
Selective Snippets from ADSL2 Broadband/Telephone Services Terms And Conditions
1.1 Definitions

Unusually High Use means high usage of the Service on a short term basis that is not consistent with a Customer's normal pattern of use or a sustained high usage which exceeds the general average usage of customers on a similar pricing plan or who have accepted a similar Special Offer.

6.7 Exetel may (but is not obliged to) contact the Customer if Exetel becomes aware of an unusually high use of the Service by the Customer (including to verify any costs or charges which the Customer may have incurred). In such event, Exetel may ask the Customer to make a pre-payment usage charge under clause 9.5. Exetel is also entitled to suspend the Service under clause 13.1(a) for an unusually high use of the Service.

12.5 Exetel may cancel the Service at any time, without liability, if:
i. the Service is suspended for more than fourteen (14) days, unless otherwise set out in the Agreement
k. Exetel is otherwise entitled to do so under the Agreement or Acceptable Use Policy.

13.1 Exetel may suspend the Service at any time, without liability:
a. in any of the circumstances described in clause 12.5(a) to (h) and (k);
c. if Exetel reasonably believes there has been an unusually high use of the Service
Nothing of note in the AUP.

P.S. I would love out of my own curiosity to see monthly frequency distribution graphs of each pricing plan with no./% of users on y-axis and say 5 GB increment bins of downloads on the x-axis to produce a 'bell curve' or 'slippery dip' graphic. That said commercial-in-confidence springs to mind :roll:

Edit: Deleted line that appeared inadvertantly condescending on second reading

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