Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

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ForumAdmin
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by ForumAdmin » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:16 pm

dbr wrote:I was referring to 11am-midday (otherwise I would have used 2300-0001), look at the huge demand there. Higher than previous midnight surge.
1) Saturday
2) End of school holidays
3) First day of month
4) P2P controls not yet changed

aiki
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by aiki » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:06 pm

I guess it's difficult to satisfy everyone, myself I use all of my 6gb peak and on average only about 2 to 2.5gb off peak I didn't think I was causing any problem with my usage so I left the offpeak as it was.

I would prefer that the 12 hours remained as it lets me spread my usage to better suit my times whereas the hardcore users still get to set their schedulers to run within the new times.

Somehow it seems to me that the ones that cause the problem aren't being as disadvantaged as some of us others.

soaper
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by soaper » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:56 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:
....as I've said before...I think your problem may be related to your exchange rather than Exetel...as for the past two nights there has been almost 1 gbps of unused IP bandwidth at midnight and similar percentages on all of the NSW ingrss/egress links.

at about 10.30-11pm on the night of 31st i had only reasonable speed (i forget what it was but it was way under 5000kps i would have thought ( i used to get 9000 odd in the past).
it was however enougth for youtube concert my son was listening too .....loudly.
the graph shows spare capacity at that time
at 23.45 approx the internet dropped out ..shown on the graph.
i didnt come back to the computer til just before 2 am when i got way better than usual speeds for that hour and (in my perception) better speeds than for 11pm.
the graph for that time shows much the same spare capacity as at around 11 pm.
sooooooooooo. is that an illustration , FA,that my exchange is the thing that is affecting my speeds???

i can then see the 2 am peak spurt that i was not connected up for.... or watching :-).

at around 11 am i had unimpressive internet.......not able to run youtube eg.
the graph shows high use then

i can understand what u say about how it may well be my exchange FA. this is an area that is being slowly subdivided up and so where there was one house.......is two or threee,so we are all sucking up bandwidth. however my immediate neighbours seem to have unsecured wireless connections LOL

right now i am running at

[`[*Test Results from <a href="http://www.ozspeedtest.com">Oz Broadband Speed Test</a>*]`]
[(----------------------------------
Test run on [*02/08/2009*] @ [*10:28 PM*])]

[(Mirror: [*Exetel*]
Data: [*9 MB*]
Test Time: [*29.25 secs*])]

[(Your line speed is [*2.58 Mbps*] (2585 kbps).
Your download speed is [*323 KB/s*] (0.32 MB/s). )]

it is supporting a midnight oil youtube concert in another room !!!!

so long as vimeo or youtube and iview run............happy happy here :D

but i thought i was reading the graph correctly in gross terms..... but maybe i can see that you are saying (are u ??) that where there is spare capacity with exetel and i am not at the same time getting my best speeds .......then it is an exchange issue.
i got faster 12mn speeds last night for sure :-)
it is probably a year since i had the speeds i had for my first year of adsl 2. they were good speeds.

duhhhh
hope this makes sense .
if not .....ignore me :lol:

RARSop
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by RARSop » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:02 am

I have read the other posts related to the unpopular decision.
I wish I had changed to the 2:00am to 2:00pm slot.
Nevertheless, looking at the traffic supplier graph the downloads have merely shifted to the 02:00am to 12:00pm slot.
Coreyplover has highlighted in other posts that any user can use all their all their quota at even slow download speeds in the 10 hr off peak period.
Any reduction in the hours of offpeak will only see a further rise in the bandwidth graph for that period. P2P users will merely utilise all their quota for the month in those hours specified by Exetel. What we will see are greater rises in the bandwidth needs during those periods.

The only way to combat this congestion is reduce the overly genorous amounts of downloads of the off peak time for certain plans.
For example, I am on the 42gb plan. While I use nearly all my peak gbs, I would be more than happy in a reduction in the offpeak amount.
This scenario could not be forced onto users in a very different situation with 6gb peak.
Thus, the only way to deliver a constant speed throughout the day during both peak and offpeak is to target the users that, as mentioned by vk3xem, cause these problems - P2P downloaders. These heavy users (including myself) need to have their offpeak quota reduced. The simplistic arguement is less quota = less bandwidth being gobbled up in the offpeak period.
This issue is impacting many exetel members such as aiki. Solutions for these problems now and in the future need to be implemented not in the uniform way of the of reduction of peak time for all users but in a fashion that is only detrimental to the users that have allowed this congestion to become an issue in the first place for all.
Go back to 12 hr offpeak periods for all users except for those on massive plans (keep them at 2:00am - 12:00 pm) and reduce the offpeak capabilities for hardcore users.
I understand many might not be happy but the alternative is a $90 telstra plan for 12gb compared to a exetel plan of $85 for over 70Gb

Ultimately, it seems that Exetel is the victim of its own exellent plans and services.

Ps - Did speedtest in the exetel site and went from 11,000 at 01:55am to 2,000 in less 10 minutes at 02:05am

Pss - In the members summary this is stll being shown
Usage Meter Server Time is 2009-08-03 01:53:11 AM.
Downloads are currently being metered as offpeak usage.

benniedeball
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by benniedeball » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:39 am

RE:RARSop,
To penalise high end (quota) users would be both unfair and a poor business decision into the bargain. It is such users that PAY for these services that keep the cost as low as possible for all users concerned.. Yes you are right in saying "that Exetel is the victim of its own exellent plans and services."

Exetel could do with looking at improving and increasing their bandwidth as this problem is not likely to go away any time soon.
The infrastructure needs to keep up with the growth increase of customers, there for backing up advertised package deals of both bandwidth and data quota as advertised... There would normally be a costs projection and and associated growth projection studies needed to off-set such additional requirements in order to maintain such a quality service as provided by EXETEL..

CoreyPlover
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by CoreyPlover » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:45 am

RARSop wrote:Any reduction in the hours of offpeak will only see a further rise in the bandwidth graph for that period. P2P users will merely utilise all their quota for the month in those hours specified by Exetel. What we will see are greater rises in the bandwidth needs during those periods.
Which is exactly what is desired. Even if the same total downloads are made in a reduced 10 hour window, this is a preferable situation as it pushes more downloads into the trough that occurs between 3am and 9am.

There might be an unfortunate side effect though that more people manually download in the morning to claw back those downloads they otherwise would have started at midnight. If this is done early in the morning it will be good, but if it is done late in the morning it could lead to some level of congestion around 11am-midday.

ForumAdmin
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by ForumAdmin » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:04 am

soaper wrote:
ForumAdmin wrote:
duhhhh
hope this makes sense .
if not .....ignore me :lol:
My point was/is that at the time you are saying your speeds are slow there is more than 25% spare capacity on both the Optus ADSL2 ingress/egress link and the IP link which, in simplistic terms, means that Exetel is not the contributor to your slow speeds and therefore, unfortunately, can do nothing about making them any faster.'

What seems the most likely cause (by no means 100%) is that the back haul from your exchange is over loaded.

Please send an email to:

larryk@exetel.com.au

and give him precise details so he can have it investigated.

soaper
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:19 pm

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by soaper » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:44 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:
What seems the most likely cause (by no means 100%) is that the back haul from your exchange is over loaded.

Please send an email to:

larryk@exetel.com.au

and give him precise details so he can have it investigated.
ok
i do get the drift of this
i had excellent speeds early on.
they have slowly deteriorated as time has gone by....... so that eg this morning around 8.30 or so...... i couldnt watch the SMH news video clips.
that hasnt happened before

i will keep a few days record because i know that my speeds are highly erratic

thanks FA

JasonM

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by JasonM » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:51 pm

I checked our supplier's system for your service and cannot find any planned outages / upgrades, that's not to say it's not congested though.

Typically, I would compare the speed test results from http://www.exetel.com.au/speed/ with the graphs we have for the link you connect to (Optus ADSL2+), and see if the link is reaching it's limits.
I can see a recent speed test from July 31st, but the graphs have advanced too much for this to be checked, so updated tests would be good..

You should test when the slow down is present, and when it is not present (if possible), and then we can check these with the link, and go to the supplier and ask they verify their network (remotely).

soaper
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by soaper » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:43 pm

JasonM wrote:
You should test when the slow down is present, and when it is not present (if possible), and then we can check these with the link, and go to the supplier and ask they verify their network (remotely).

thanks jason

i am doing that
i have been testing off
http://www.ozspeedtest.com/
but will do that and your suggested site.
will keep good records as i am sure everyone is sick of hearing about this.
because i dont game or do heavy downloads.......the speed beyond a certain point is irrelevant to me.
i just need adequate is all

thanks (again ) :)

tulett
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by tulett » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:19 pm

It's a shame this thread has gone so far off topic.

paulb
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Even worse congestion

Post by paulb » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:22 pm

CoreyPlover wrote:Even if the same total downloads are made in a reduced 10 hour window, this is a preferable situation as it pushes more downloads into the trough that occurs between 3am and 9am.

There might be an unfortunate side effect though that more people manually download in the morning to claw back those downloads they otherwise would have started at midnight. If this is done early in the morning it will be good, but if it is done late in the morning it could lead to some level of congestion around 11am-midday.
OK, so what is most fascinating now, is that we have a higher peak at 11:00 to 12:00 than ever before - notably over the last weekend, but today's figures seem to be bearing this out also.

It's an interesting thought, but I have great doubts however that this is a manual effect - I am particularly interested in the outgoing traffic level which is firstly, close to half of the incoming traffic which suggests to me that Exetel is being heavily used as a server of some sort, which must presumably be a combination of Web (port 80) serving, and torrents. Now, this outgoing traffic also "steps" at the changeover points by about half as much as the incoming traffic, suggesting that torrents are a major component, as Web servers require little request or handshake traffic.

My theory is that the peak is predominantly torrent traffic, and that whilst it is relatively uniform over the period the clients are enabled, the midday peak corresponds to activity in the North American (evening) region ramping up and finding the Australian peers available. On this basis I suspect that extending the "off-peak" period later in the day - to 14:00 - would result in an even more severe surge.

Someone care to explain to me if/ how my hypotheses here are wrong?
benniedeball wrote:To penalise high end (quota) users would be both unfair and a poor business decision into the bargain. It is such users that PAY for these services that keep the cost as low as possible for all users concerned
I very much doubt this. Like most providers, Exetel is primarily supported by "light" users - those who use less than half of their "peak" quota and very little of their "off-peak". Exetel does offer plans which clearly encourage a small subset of "parasitic" users who benefit from its plans to utilise "excess" capacity and clearly, they do this only too effectively :roll: , but by no means would these be a large contingent, or indeed critical to profitability. Rather, Exetel competes by offering inexpensive access compared to other providers. {Interestingly, the "off-peak" quota is except for the "budget" plans, the same for all plans, so you can just as easily be "parasitic" and pay only half as much.}
benniedeball wrote:Yes you are right in saying "that Exetel is the victim of its own exellent(sic.) plans and services."
This is true to the extent that we are now seeing this peak of activity in the "off-peak" period - and which is the whole point of this discussion. And quite simply Exetel is seeking to resolve that in order to satisfy both "light" (the bulk) and "heavy" users. Doing so does mean that it will retain both parts of this customer base - which certainly does favour a wider acceptance and - is good for business (as long as it does not significantly impair network performance for the majority).

And seriously, no-one is going to "defect" to another supplier even if quotas were reduced substantially, simply because Exetel is (as best I can gather) so far ahead already - in what is on offer.

CoreyPlover
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by CoreyPlover » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:26 pm

Summary of current proposals (and some additions of my own) to bring it back on-topic:
CoreyPlover wrote:1. Investigate why the de-prioritisation has not been effective in managing bandwidth (Ramp up the processing power / load balancing, IP based deprioritisation?)
CoreyPlover wrote:2. (Attributed to another poster) Instigate a phase-in whereby:
  • During the period from 11pm to midnight, 75% of quota gets allocated to peak and 25% to peak
  • During the period from midnight to 1am, 50% of quota gets allocated to peak and 50% to peak
  • During the period from 1am to 2am, 25% of quota gets allocated to peak and 75% to peak
CoreyPlover, tulett, austdata et al wrote:3. Encourage users to select a later off-peak interval by giving clear incentives, such as an extra 4Gb of off-peak quota for the interval from 1am to midday, an extra 8GB for an interval from 2am to midday, and an extra 12GB for an interval from 3am to midday. ForumAdmin even hinted at the possibility of 100GB between 3am and 9am
aiki & CordlezToaster wrote:Slight variation: Reinstate the 12 till 12 option but with a reduced quota, like say 20 or 30gb.
CoreyPlover wrote:4. Assigned to off-peak categories or dynamic rating system based on downloading behaviour
ausgnome wrote:5. A new intermediate plan with slightly more peak and less off peak
hbfix2 wrote:6. Impose a 'fair use' policy which requires users to avoid starting or continuing large downloads before 2am on a frequent basis and penalise infringers with some variation of shaping
Redtail5, varied by others wrote:7. "Alternating" extra off-peak, where even and odd numbered phone number get midnight-2am off-peak on alternate days
JasonM wrote:8. Off peak at 12am is reintroduced, but the quota in the period midnight to 2am has a 2x penalty

CoreyPlover
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Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by CoreyPlover » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:30 pm

Examining the above, in particular the possibility of "graded" options and ForumAdmin's comment about a feasible 100GB, 6-hour off-peak window, why not reinstate a midnight to midday off-peak period, reduce the amount from 60GB to 20GB, but deem 3am-9am as a "super off-peak" with 40GB additional quota. This would:
  • Reinstate the previous off-peak terms and conditions (i.e. it is still effectively 60GB in a 12 hour window from midnight to midday) and hence reduce customer complaints
  • Actively encourage users to prudently manage their downloads if they wish to harness their full off-peak quota
  • Reduce congestion at midnight to 3am as well as 9am to midday
  • Still allows users enough "bonus" downloads which can (or sometimes must) be utilised without schedulers (i.e. streaming media, gaming updates)
  • Still give schedulable downloaders the ability to utilise the full 60GB of traffic and in fact provides some scope for a possible increase in the "super off-peak" as per ForumAdmin's comments
  • Allows for a much smoother bandwidth utilisation which can be fine tuned by rebalancing the ratio of 20GB+40GB accordingly
  • Gives Exetel a lot more control over increasing quotas as they can increase the "super off-peak" separately to the regular off peak in order to maintain a smooth-ish bandwidth utilisation as aggregate bandwidth is increased.

paulb
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Re: Even worse congestion

Post by paulb » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:17 pm

paulb wrote:
CoreyPlover wrote: There might be an unfortunate side effect though that more people manually download in the morning to claw back those downloads they otherwise would have started at midnight. If this is done early in the morning it will be good, but if it is done late in the morning it could lead to some level of congestion around 11am-midday.
OK, so what is most fascinating now, is that we have a higher peak at 11:00 to 12:00 than ever before ... I have great doubts however that this is a manual effect - I am particularly interested in the outgoing traffic level which is firstly, close to half of the incoming traffic which suggests to me that Exetel is being heavily used as a server of some sort
I daresay I forgot about gamers, didn't I? (And VoIP.) But could gamers really be a major component of a shift from 00:00 to 02:00, across to 11:00 to 12:00 in the daytime?

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