Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Open discussion regarding technological or telecommunication issues
vk3xem
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:45 pm
Location: HEALESVILLE
Contact:

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by vk3xem » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:05 pm

I think good idea would be if off-peak was maybe returned to 12 - 12 to make everyone happy, but P2P be savegely restricted until after 2AM, maybe even blocked between 1200 - 0200.

Alternatively or additionaly leaches that abuse the 1200 - 0200 time frame with unattended downloads be sent an automated email advising they will be placed in the 0200 - 1200 off-peak time slot for abusing fair use policy.

These two options could make it a very simple and easy process that would be easy for everyone one to understand and comply with. If a P2P leacher is unwilling to change their behaviour they are forced into the 0200 - 1200 time slot.

This would allow people the learn that their download behavior can affect other users and to consider this affect, if they refuse to accept and want to leach then they are forced to comply without affecting everyone else.
The views I present are that of my own and NOT of any organisation I may belong to.

73 de Simon, VK3XEM

Legend
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:40 am

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by Legend » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:42 pm

vk3xem wrote:I think good idea would be if off-peak was maybe returned to 12 - 12 to make everyone happy, but P2P be savegely restricted until after 2AM,
I'm still on 512/128. Until now I've scheduled my P2P download speed to a maximum of 30KB/s at midnight and then to 40KB/s at 2AM. That's why I never bothered changing to the 2AM-2PM option. With the new restrictions I'm going to have to reduce my average peak time speeds to compensate for the extra 2 hrs of peak time and ramp the speed up to maximum at 2AM to use as much of my allocation as I can in the 10hrs. I was actually considering changing to another plan with a lower peak allocation but that's no longer an option with the new restrictions. The 12-12 option suggested above would suit me more than 2-12 but I'm a little concerned about what "savegely restricted" means.

vk3xem
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:45 pm
Location: HEALESVILLE
Contact:

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by vk3xem » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:28 am

Legend wrote:The 12-12 option suggested above would suit me more than 2-12 but I'm a little concerned about what "savegely restricted" means.
The problem was too many people starting their downloads right on midnight, whether you have slowed them down slightly or not you contributed to the problem that forced Exetel to act and change off-peak start time to 0200. My meaning of savegly restricted is slow it down to between 2k and 5k, to ensure interactive users (gaming, streaming, browsing, VoIP) will not be comprimised by your downloads that occour while you are more than likely fast asleep.
Legend wrote:With the new restrictions I'm going to have to reduce my average peak time speeds to compensate for the extra 2 hrs of peak time and ramp the speed up to maximum at 2AM to use as much of my allocation as I can in the 10hrs.
It has been show in other Exetel Forum threads that even downloading on a 512/128 connection for 10 hours will easily put you well over your 60G quota, your attitude is perpetuating the whole problem that cased this problem. If you are running P2P 24/7 then as far as I'm concerned you are leeching to the detriment of other users and must sharing copyright infringement material and would have no sympathy with you being slowed or even booted for that behavior.
The views I present are that of my own and NOT of any organisation I may belong to.

73 de Simon, VK3XEM

CoreyPlover
Volunteer Site Admin
Posts: 5922
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:24 pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by CoreyPlover » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:52 am

vk3xem wrote:It has been show in other Exetel Forum threads that even downloading on a 512/128 connection for 10 hours will easily put you well over your 60G quota, your attitude is perpetuating the whole problem that cased this problem. If you are running P2P 24/7 then as far as I'm concerned you are leeching to the detriment of other users and must sharing copyright infringement material and would have no sympathy with you being slowed or even booted for that behavior.
Actually, downloading at constant speeds 24/7 is probably one of the better usage patterns from the view point of bandwidth management. The best pattern for automated downloads is one that goes full speed between 3am and 8am in order to utilise the troughs in aggregate usage patterns.

Also, no benefit is served by making assumptions about the legitimacy if other users' behaviour.

The fact is that the 60GB is contractually available to users. This thread is about how we can provide users with access to that 60Gb in a manner which does not lead to degraded experiences for other users.

Legend
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:40 am

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by Legend » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:15 am

vk3xem wrote:The problem was too many people starting their downloads right on midnight, whether you have slowed them down slightly or not you contributed to the problem that forced Exetel to act and change off-peak start time to 0200.


Which is exactly what I said would happen when Exetel moved the off-peak start time back to 12 from 2AM. Of course others argued that P2P deprioritisation would ensure that the surge wouldn't happen.
vk3xem wrote:It has been show in other Exetel Forum threads that even downloading on a 512/128 connection for 10 hours will easily put you well over your 60G quota, your attitude is perpetuating the whole problem that cased this problem.
Assuming that you can actually run at maximum speed for the whole period that's true but, in the real world, it's not always possible. For example, right now I've had to reduce my P2P speeds to use my connection because I tend to use it for other things (windows updates, VPN, RDP to computers belonging to my clients, talking on Exetel forums etc) and it simply isn't possible to do these things with P2P going flat chat. That's why I've only managed to use 36GB of my 54GB quota (not 60GB, I'm on an old plan) this month. And, of course, that's with a 12 hour period. Cut it to 10 and more of the 54GB quota will be useless.
vk3xem wrote:If you are running P2P 24/7 then as far as I'm concerned you are leeching to the detriment of other users
Leeching at reduced speeds 24/7 has to be better for the network than leeching at maximum speed for as long as it takes to use up your quota. That's what's happening at midnight. People are opening up the throttle right on midnight and downloading at full speed for as long as it takes to grab what they want. When the download finishes they drop off. As this happens bandwidth usage decreases, which is why network performance is better at 3 or 4 am than it is at 12:30am. People who download 24/7 are forced to reduce their average speed in order to avoid using all their quota in a short time. In the process they reduce peak network usage. This very issue was discussed at length before P2P deprioritisation started. The issue then, and most likely still now is that many people just don't bother using a scheduler or speed limiting. They start their downloads before they go to bed and are oblivious to the fact that they're slowing down the network for others. Moving the off-peak start time to 2am eliminates some of these people because they're in bed by 2am. There's not much you can do about the people who do use schedulers without speed limiting. They'll still cause a network peak at 2am. The answer here is partly to deprioritise P2P as you've suggested, but not as severely as you've suggested, at least based on previous comments by Exetel. It would be far better to deprioritise as Exetel did before, so that P2P can't slow the network down. Exetel would then have the option of making the off-peak period any time it wants to but I think 2am is a good start time. The other part of the fix deals with the length and quota of the off-peak period. There are always going to be people who use all of the quota in the off-peak period. Reducing the time to 10 hours means that these people are going to have to download at a higher average speed (about 8KB/s higher for me), which contributes to network congestion. The options are to either increase the period back to 12 hours or reduce the quota. Either allows for a reduced average speed. P2P deprioritisation ensures that the average speed for the whole network never exceeds a certain point.

ForumAdmin
Exetel Staff
Posts: 3663
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by ForumAdmin » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:09 am

We have used P2P restrictions (via Allot boxes) in the past and continue to do so at a much lesser extent today and will almost certainly continue to do so in the immediate future.

However we have moved from all traffic going through the two Sydney IP feeds to non NSW customer's traffic largely going through 'direct connects' in the individual States/Territories and the control, and especially the balancing of P2P restrictions isn't as effective as it used to be in the new topology.

So, as far as I can see at the moment, we will not be using P2P controls outside NSW at all in the future and we will progressively decrease their usage in NSW by the end of this calendar year or shortly thereafter.

The issue remains what is off peak?

As more and more (non-P2P) usage 'drifts' ever later in to the early morning 12 midnight has ceased to be an end of peak usage and therefore off peak can no longer be described as starting at 12 midnight - and therefore it is almost certainly the case that you will never see off peak starting at midnight in terms of Exetel broad band plans ever again - don't even think it's going to be possible.

Looking at the MRTG reports for the various States (including NSW) over a very long time the obvious situation is that there is a, relatively brief, period of congestion (about 20 - 30 minutes depending on the location and the IP upgrade cycle) from exactly midnight which, unless five years of intense observation is very, very wrong, will be eliminated from early August and we will be able to see what the current Exetel user base 'demands' of the early morning hours.

Once we can see the actual new usage patterns we will be able to re-look at what is possible.

dbr
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:33 pm
Location: Sale VIC

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by dbr » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:26 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:will be eliminated from early August
It may take until September bill run as not everyone will read the notification and I expect there will be a number who get 'caught out' leaving their schedulers set for 0001. I can hear the outraged cries already (or at least picture their posts).
http://www.saferoz.com.au
First Aid * Fire * Safety

ForumAdmin
Exetel Staff
Posts: 3663
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by ForumAdmin » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:36 pm

dbr wrote:
ForumAdmin wrote:will be eliminated from early August
It may take until September bill run as not everyone will read the notification and I expect there will be a number who get 'caught out' leaving their schedulers set for 0001. I can hear the outraged cries already (or at least picture their posts).
You are undoubtedly going to be correct but all we can do is to send emails to the nominated contact email address.

We will send two more next week and will also use a 'block page' advising every customer that they have to accept that 'off peak' has been changed before regaining access to the internet.

I don't know of any other solution.

royale
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:57 pm
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by royale » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:30 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:We will send tow more next week and will also use a 'block page' advising every customer that they have to accept that 'off peak' has been changed before regaining access to the internet.

I don't know of any other solution.
It's a tough approach, but it will surely get the message through to every single user that there is a change about to happen. Anyone that then cries foul can be administered a backhand for being completely ignorant of the message they did not read, and simply agreed to.

hbfix2
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:12 pm

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by hbfix2 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:41 pm

dbr wrote: ...I can hear the outraged cries already (or at least picture their posts).
Stop, stop, or I'll have to run and get my tear bucket!!

Let them eat cake.

Craig M
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:53 am
Location: New Lambton, Newcastle

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by Craig M » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:14 am

Im one of the guys who took the 2am-2pm option and frankly I love that. Im not one of those users who schedules any kind of downloading from the beginning of my off-peak time as it is, so the later time actually suited me much better. So I guess the change back to 2am-12pm sucks for me. I'd not care if it was 4am-2pm...just so it puts my off-peak time in a period where Im actually awake a little more.

Either way, my speeds have never been fast enough to degenerate much further than what they are and Im rarely awake @ thecomputer come midnight to notice any drop. But its obviously been a problem for a number of users and thus, changes need to happen for the greater good.

Ravenous
Posts: 325
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:44 pm
Location: Brisbane, Qld

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by Ravenous » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:30 pm

If one of the theories that I read floating around holds true - that customers were staying up until 12am to hit start on their downloads - then I beleive changing off-peak time to later in the morning is the best course of action.

There could be further improvement if these customers were encouraged, in some way, to start their downloads when they wake up in the morning instead of waiting up late at night. The initial bandwidth demand may spread over a couple of hours instead of currently a couple of minutes. For example, if the off-peak period was 4am - 2pm, customers may opt to start their downloads just prior to leaving for work. This could likely to be spread at times between 6am and 8am considering customer work commute times and work start times will vary between individual to individual.

If the majority of customers are using downloading schedulers.... i got nothing

Cheers,

Ravenous.

P.S. I am spewing that peak metering time is now 14 hours per day.
P.P.S. I am spewing that I applied for 2am - 2pm off-peak option a few days before 2am - 12pm announcement (I assume it will not be honoured). Considering these customers who chose this option in the months prior were 'rewarded'.

austdata
Posts: 629
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by austdata » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:04 pm

Ravenous wrote:P.P.S. I am spewing that I applied for 2am - 2pm off-peak option a few days before 2am - 12pm announcement (I assume it will not be honoured).
I did chose it too and it's being honoured.
The views I present here are not necessarily those from my brain.
Exetel's support number outside Sydney: 1300 788 141 NOTE: I do not work for Exetel.

soaper
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:19 pm

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by soaper » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:22 pm

last night at 12mn there was a slow down but NOTHING like the past months

i watched ABC iview with some buffering and slowness but didnt experience that near fatal stop at exactly 12mn.
i saw the end of my *spooks * show 8)

altogether a different experience
\
maybe some people have already made changes???

whoever did what ...............thank you :)

ForumAdmin
Exetel Staff
Posts: 3663
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Practical alternatives for managing off-peak and congestion

Post by ForumAdmin » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:58 pm

soaper wrote:last night at 12mn there was a slow down but NOTHING like the past months

i watched ABC iview with some buffering and slowness but didnt experience that near fatal stop at exactly 12mn.
i saw the end of my *spooks * show 8)

altogether a different experience
\
maybe some people have already made changes???

whoever did what ...............thank you :)
It would not be related to anything that Exetel has caused to happen.

Most likely explanation is it's the end of the month and few people hav any down load allowance left - but As I've commnted before on your particular experience it is either caused or exacerbated by some local exchange/back haul situation.

Post Reply