ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Open discussion regarding technological or telecommunication issues
CoreyPlover
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by CoreyPlover » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:50 pm

I'm wondering, ForumAdmin, if you might have misinterpretted Gabriel8's post. He is actually echoing your sentiments that heavy users have no place at Exetel and operate selfishly at the detriment of Exetel and all other users. The central part of the post was actually a quote from Whirlpool User #78843.
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

ForumAdmin
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:36 am

CoreyPlover wrote:I'm wondering, ForumAdmin, if you might have misinterpretted Gabriel8's post. He is actually echoing your sentiments that heavy users have no place at Exetel and operate selfishly at the detriment of Exetel and all other users. The central part of the post was actually a quote from Whirlpool User #78843.
Corey, I did realise that. I just deleted the content which breaks all the forum rules and left the url link (where the deleted content can be read for those who wish to do so).

ForumAdmin
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:11 pm

The results of last months measures to reduce the number of unhappy high usage users resulted in a slight decline in total ADSL revenue of slightly less than $4,000 and a $50,000 decrease in the losses made on providing services to high end users.

It was a satisfactory result and we expect to that the end of June figures will show a similar result.

Should the definition of the problem(s) and their solution(s) remain on the current track there should be no unhappy high usage Exetel users by the end of November 2010.

Bruce Evans
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Bruce Evans » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:00 pm

Regarding the ungrateful customer that Gabriel8 refers to:
Why did that customer think the off-peak period was unlimited?
Doesn’t Exetel’s pricing page make it very clear to everyone that it’s not unlimited?
Well, er… actually, um… apparently it doesn’t (even after the recent changes).
The reason I started this thread was to point this out.
So, expect more similar customers next month.

That said; I’m confident that Exetel, being the very experienced and responsible ISP that it is, knows exactly what it’s doing keeping the pricing page as it is, and therefore expects such customers to occasionally join up, and knows exactly how to deal with them.

However, I can’t help thinking it’s unfortunate that this situation needs to continue. But, as I said, Exetel knows what it’s doing.

Now, I don’t wish to actually encourage heavy downloading off-peak, but I must say something regarding the many references to off-peak bandwidth costing Exetel $0.40 per gig:
As I understand it, this is the summed cost of the on-peak and off-peak bandwidth. If not, then surely Exetel would have already gone bankrupt long ago since it gives away or discards the off-peak portion which currently amounts to a quarter of total bandwidth (6 hours per day) and used to be half until recently.
Therefore, in reality, the off-peak bandwidth which Exetel has no choice but to pay for, and which is largely wasted (like packaging on a supermarket product) has little real value (to most people). Do you begrudge your council for making use (by recycling) of otherwise wasted packaging, etc? (leaving out the environmental issue) Would it really be sensible to say that the council is actually costing us the original price paid for the packaging simply because they make use of something we have no use for?
The truth is, provided not all of the wasted off-peak bandwidth is used up (and that is very important), a heavy off-peak downloader could actually be more profitable than a light downloader if he uses less of his on-peak allowance, because it’s the on-peak usage that determines how much bandwidth Exetel has to buy. So, if you really want to help Exetel and all its customers, then use less of your on-peak allowance. Whining about off-peak usage doesn’t help. Exetel knows how to deal with that. However, I’m certainly not saying a heavy downloader is more desirable than a light one, since he can’t exist without several light downloaders.

Incidentally, I’m a very happy Exetel customer, and I now download as little as I can on-peak.

I just noticed ForumAdmin’s mention of a $4,000 decline in revenue (not surprising). But I’d be interested in how the $50,000 figure could be calculated bearing in mind my above reasoning. I expect it’s a purely notional figure. But really that’s Exetel’s business. I don’t expect a reasoned reply.

ForumAdmin
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:16 pm

Bruce Evans wrote: I just noticed ForumAdmin’s mention of a $4,000 decline in revenue (not surprising). But I’d be interested in how the $50,000 figure could be calculated bearing in mind my above reasoning. I expect it’s a purely notional figure. But really that’s Exetel’s business. I don’t expect a reasoned reply.
Its simple - it takes the cost of providing the services used in June versus the cost of providing the services in May - it cost $50,000 less in June.

G-Box
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by G-Box » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:36 pm

[quote="ForumAdmin"]
It's hard to believe people capable of using the internet can be that stupid and anti-social. Goodness knows what their parents are like.[/quote]

Stupidity is better than deceptive obscure limits which you enforce with no definition as to what is excessive or considered abusive to the service.
You & Corey often lock threads saying 'read the aup'

No where in the AUP does it say eXetel will shape (manage) your connection the following month if you abuse or use an excessive amount in the offpeak time on a plan that is labelled as UNLIMITED offpeak in the previous month.

That's stupid and just plain Lionel Hutz nonsense material.
What were you parents like? Dodgy Lawyers?

trk
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by trk » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:53 pm

Why did Exetel go away from the NF plans? Surely a defined off peak allowance with a charge for overuse is the best solution for all involved? The leechers pay their way, and the price set for the limit provided (hopefully) allows for a user to use their allowance without sending Exetel broke.

Just not sure why there appears to be this obsession with "uncounted", "unmetered", "unlimited" when there is no desire to attract customers who normally seek out those sort of plan attributes.

Happy NF customer here, but getting a little sick of seeing constant WP whinge threads regarding the latest offering of "un-something" plans....

Spectator
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Spectator » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:13 pm

Why did Exetel go away from the NF plans? Surely a defined off peak allowance with a charge for overuse is the best solution for all involved? The leechers pay their way, and the price set for the limit provided (hopefully) allows for a user to use their allowance without sending Exetel broke.
I'd have to agree. I believe their motivations for doing this are good (extra value for customers, no 'wasted' bandwidth) but it seems like they are just inviting the same problems to occur again. Given the lengths Exetel are going to to remove unprofitable customers that download large amounts of data, I can't believe they don't simply put a defined limit on off-peak.

I would suggest exetel define an off-peak limit (industry standard seemed to be 1-2x included peak data last time I looked). If they find they have spare off-peak capacity perhaps they could release cheapish off-peak data packs to a limited number of customers and make a few extra $ for themselves.

Someone mentioned AUP providing an indication of excessive downloads. The acceptable use policy here:

http://www.exetel.com.au/a_acceptable_use_adsl2.php

makes no mention of excessive downloads as far as I can see.

Bruce Evans
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Bruce Evans » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:40 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:Its simple - it takes the cost of providing the services used in June versus the cost of providing the services in May - it cost $50,000 less in June.
If you’re referring to the total cost of services to all users, then the figure would be influenced by many factors, such as the ever decreasing cost of bandwidth, etc, etc. It may be seen as misleading to attribute it solely to one user type without further explanation; and yet I certainly wouldn’t dream of asking for further explanation such as a breakdown of costs, etc. This is definitely none of my business.

ForumAdmin
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:51 pm

Bruce Evans wrote:
ForumAdmin wrote:Its simple - it takes the cost of providing the services used in June versus the cost of providing the services in May - it cost $50,000 less in June.
If you’re referring to the total cost of services to all users, then the figure would be influenced by many factors, such as the ever decreasing cost of bandwidth, etc, etc. It may be seen as misleading to attribute it solely to one user type without further explanation; and yet I certainly wouldn’t dream of asking for further explanation such as a breakdown of costs, etc. This is definitely none of my business.
Do you really think we are so stupid we don't know how to interpret the figures we generate from second to second to operate the business for the past almost seven years?

You are absolutely right - none of this sort of information is the concern of anyone but Exetel's management.

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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:55 pm

trk wrote:Why did Exetel go away from the NF plans? Surely a defined off peak allowance with a charge for overuse is the best solution for all involved? The leechers pay their way, and the price set for the limit provided (hopefully) allows for a user to use their allowance without sending Exetel broke.

Just not sure why there appears to be this obsession with "uncounted", "unmetered", "unlimited" when there is no desire to attract customers who normally seek out those sort of plan attributes.

Happy NF customer here, but getting a little sick of seeing constant WP whinge threads regarding the latest offering of "un-something" plans....
We just don't want heavy down loaders and can't see how any new heavy down loader would select Exetel when they have the options of other ISPs who offer unlimited downloads or very inexpensive downloads - Exetel's plans do not seek to compete with those plans.

Neither do we want to waste the unused capacity by not offering it to our reasonable customers - that would be silly as well as wasteful.

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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:56 pm

trk wrote:
Happy NF customer here, but getting a little sick of seeing constant WP whinge threads regarding the latest offering of "un-something" plans....
There is a simple solution to that 'problem'.

trk
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by trk » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:37 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:
trk wrote:Why did Exetel go away from the NF plans? Surely a defined off peak allowance with a charge for overuse is the best solution for all involved? The leechers pay their way, and the price set for the limit provided (hopefully) allows for a user to use their allowance without sending Exetel broke.

Just not sure why there appears to be this obsession with "uncounted", "unmetered", "unlimited" when there is no desire to attract customers who normally seek out those sort of plan attributes.

Happy NF customer here, but getting a little sick of seeing constant WP whinge threads regarding the latest offering of "un-something" plans....
We just don't want heavy down loaders and can't see how any new heavy down loader would select Exetel when they have the options of other ISPs who offer unlimited downloads or very inexpensive downloads - Exetel's plans do not seek to compete with those plans.

Neither do we want to waste the unused capacity by not offering it to our reasonable customers - that would be silly as well as wasteful.
I guess the terms "no charge" or "uncounted" or "unmetered" indicate "download as much as your connection will allow you" to certain people, where those certain people are exactly the type of customers you dont want.

While Exetel may not compete with peak allowance, once you throw in the phrase that may indicate to some people that you can "download as much as your connection will allow you" in off peak hours it becomes a leechers paradise. A cap on that, ala NF plans, would still allow Exetel to offer unused capacity to their users without attracting the mega downloaders - I would have thought? I am no expert in human nature, but I think you massively over estimate peoples ability to control themselves when given the chance to grab as much data as they can.

Anyway. I will continue to enjoy my NF plan - which has enough off peak for me. I like the fact there is no shaping, but a charge rate if I exceed it so I know that I theoretically should never be in a position that is unprofitable. If I choose to take a mirror of the entire internet I can do so - but pay my own way for it instead of destroying the profit of half the remaining customer base in the process.

CoreyPlover
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by CoreyPlover » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:04 pm

Spectator wrote:
The acceptable use policy here:
http://www.exetel.com.au/a_acceptable_use_adsl2.php
makes no mention of excessive downloads as far as I can see.
The old AUP used to mention about off-peak data usage and had another section added for the "uncharged" plans that specified a limit of 3 times the average userbase. That section was removed after the (attempted) move to "unlimited". Since the plans have now reverted to "uncharged" perhaps the 3 times limit will get reinstated into the AUP.

The excessive usage is, however, covered by the terms and conditions. For example, from https://www.exetel.com.au/form_include/optus_terms.php, clause 1.1 defines "Unusually High Use" and clauses 6.7 and 13.1 talk about suspending the service in light of unusually high usage. No hard limits are specified though.
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

Bruce Evans
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Bruce Evans » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:06 pm

ForumAdmin wrote:Do you really think we are so stupid we don't know how to interpret the figures we generate from second to second to operate the business for the past almost seven years?
I certainly don't think you, or rather Exetel is stupid. I made this clear in an earlier post. (Just a little cunning, perhaps)
ForumAdmin wrote:You are absolutely right - none of this sort of information is the concern of anyone but Exetel's management.
And yet, you're the one who started quoting figures, not I.
ForumAdmin wrote:We just don't want heavy down loaders and can't see how any new heavy down loader would select Exetel when they have the options of other ISPs who offer unlimited downloads
Perhaps you're the only one who can't see. (There's none so blind as he who will not see)
ForumAdmin wrote:Neither do we want to waste the unused capacity by not offering it to our reasonable customers - that would be silly as well as wasteful.
After years of offering off-peak downloads Exetel still has heaps of wasted capacity which your "reasonable" customers obviously don't want to use. When the heavy downloaders have gone, you will presumably have even more excess capacity for them to not use. We're left to assume this is your preferred "not silly" method of wasting it.

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