ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Open discussion regarding technological or telecommunication issues
CoreyPlover
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by CoreyPlover » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:42 pm

Bruce, perhaps you could show a little good faith in Exetel management. They have, after all, run Exetel incredibly successfully for almost 7 years now. As a customer you are perfectly entitled to make suggestions, just try to make sure they are not construed as undue criticism because very few (any?) other ISPs (and even fewer individuals like yourself) can boast a track record as impressive as Exetel's.

You make statements regarding "wasted capacity" without any knowledge of efficacy of bandwidth in other ISPs or industry. You make statements that Exetel could make profit by competing for a leecher userbase without reference to the larger picture of running an ISP (Honestly, to suggest Exetel should compete for such business is complete folly on a number of levels).

It is at this stage when you have to realise that you are just a customer with an opinion and this falls well short of Exetel senior management who have full access to facts, figures and analysis. If Exetel management have decided they do not want heavy downloaders, it becomes gospel whether you agree with it or not. In short, Exetel know more about managing an ISP and bandwidth than you do; you will eventually have to accept this and concede the argument.
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

Bruce Evans
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Location: Perth

Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Bruce Evans » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:05 am

CoreyPlover wrote:Bruce, perhaps you could show a little good faith in Exetel management.
I have great faith in Exetel. Sorry if that's not clear.
CoreyPlover wrote:You make statements that Exetel could make profit by competing for a leecher userbase
That's not what I intended to suggest. Rather, that having a small percentage of heavy downloaders may not be the evil it's made out to be. No-one has explained any mechanism which could demonstrate such evil. I don't wish to condemn anyone without good reason.
CoreyPlover wrote:If Exetel management have decided they do not want heavy downloaders, it becomes gospel
Judging from the pricing page my only response to that can be: If.

CoreyPlover
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by CoreyPlover » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:30 am

Bruce Evans wrote:That's not what I intended to suggest. Rather, that having a small percentage of heavy downloaders is not the evil it's made out to be. No-one has explained any mechanism which could demonstrate such evil. I don't wish to condemn anyone without good reason.
The mechanism to demonstrate the "evil" relates to the cross subsidies that heavy downloaders impose upon a userbase. Any deviation away from a pure "pay for what you use" introduces inequity, and "large inequity" = "evil" (from a business and ethics point of view at least).

As you say, someone who downloads 60GB per month, but does so within, say, a 4am to 6am window is not "evil" so the issues are not black and white. But in general, "leechers" and "heavy downloaders" refer to those people who try to scrape 100GB+ from the lowest price plan each and every month. These are the users that are unattractive to Exetel and their community of users.
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

Bruce Evans
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Location: Perth

Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Bruce Evans » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:41 am

Sorry, but I still can't see why, if they only take what no-one else wants anyway. The heavy downloaders so far have not depleted the excess bandwidth, as far as I know. Of course, as you said, I'm only a customer and don't really even understand exactly what you mean by cross subsidies. If you mean the inequity you spoke of, then considering that any customer on the same plan could download the same (although we know most don't want to) where is the inequity?

CoreyPlover
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by CoreyPlover » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:38 am

Bruce Evans wrote:The heavy downloaders so far have not depleted the excess bandwidth, as far as I know
They almost definitely have. I'm pretty sure that the spikes you see at 12 midnight and 2am have a substantial component arising from "heavy downloaders". It is like the straw that broke the camel's back. Is it the marginal downloaders that schedule 50 - 100MB downloads at 2am that causes the peaks at 12midnight or 2am, or is it the heavy downloaders that stagger 60-90GB across the entire 12-12 period?
Bruce Evans wrote:Of course, as you said, I'm only a customer and don't really even understand exactly what you mean by cross subsidies. If you mean the inequity you spoke of, then considering that any customer on the same plan could download the same (although we know most don't want to) where is the inequity?
Yes, cross subsidy means one person paying more than what they use subsidising another paying less than what they use.

While all have equal *access* to downloads the inequity arises in light of what people *actually* download. Largely, this is an issue for Exetel to sort out, because as you allude to they are providing all with access to such quota. But the reality remains that some people consume more resources than others, hence cross subsidies exist. Within certain tolerances, it is fair game. But the more top-heavy an ISP gets in terms of heavy downloaders, the more pressure there is to raise prices. For the majority of users, this then means that prices increase as a result of the actions of other people.
Bruce Evans wrote:Sorry, but I still can't see why
If this statement remains true, it is probably best to continue discusses via PM or in, say, live chat so as not to clog the forums. I'm happy to make myself available for further discussion of my thoughts on these topics.
I am a volunteer moderator and not an Exetel staff member. As with all forum posts, mine do not constitute any "official" Exetel position. Support tickets may be logged via https://helpdesk.exetel.com.au or residentialsupport@exetel.com.au

Gabriel8
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Location: Perth, W.A, Australia

Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by Gabriel8 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:48 am

Bruce Evans,

I'll summarize the behavior of a leecher into the simplest form in regards to Exetel so that you can understand.
No need to go into complexities.

Exetel's Tenets of Business:
Please refer here: http://www.exetel.com.au/res_main.php

The problem with providing a broadband service to a leecher is that the leecher impacts upon the Tenets of Exetel because the leecher has no consideration for other users on the Exetel network nor Exetel itself. Also a leecher's attitude is such that self is first before everyone else. This is very contrary to the tenets in which Exetel operates by. Also a leecher interprets things and situations very differently than a just customer. When I look at Exetel's plan even if Exetel say, "It is unlimited from this time to that time.", my interpretation since I am mostly a low user is Exetel is so damn cheap in regards to the onpeak allowance in comparison to other isp providers that the unlimited part has no bearing on my decision to choose Exetel as my isp provider. Even if Exetel cut off offpeak would be irrelevant to me. But a leecher sees it differently. I see offpeak as an added bonus. In another words I don't really care about offpeak.

Most leechers are unprofitable month in and month out due to their greedy downloading habits, in both onpeak and offpeak allowances. Because Exetel operate at such extreme margins in order to pass on the cost savings to their customers, the actions of many leechers who constitute a tiny % of Exetel's customers can have a devastating impact upon the very tenets that Exetel operate by and also on the majority of Exetel's customers. In another words because of the actions of a tiny % of Exetel's very unprofitable customers, Exetel cannot pass cost savings, and added value bonuses to the rest of its customers.

To put it into simpler terms, Exetel pays for unprofitable customers to screw everything up for everyone else. That is going against Exetel's Tenets.

To put it into simpler terms, I charge $10 for buffet for the average person. An average person eats x amount. I have 100 people that eats x amount. With the profit I make, I increase the number of dishes available and keep the price at $10. I then get 200 people that eats x amount. I get more profit so I reduce the price to $8. But then I get 10 gluttons that eat 10x and 300 that eats x. So now my profit margins are stuffed up by the 10 gluttons. I find that I cannot improve my service because of the 10 gluttons because they eat 100 people's share. I'm worst off now then when I had 200 customers because of the 10 gluttons. So what I want to do now is get rid of the 10 gluttons so I can improve the service even better for my existing customers. It’s either this or a price hike or a reduction in the number of dishes. I do this by telling the gluttons directly that my restaurant cannot cater for the large amounts of food that they eat (polite way). They should go somewhere else. But if they insist on coming back, I instruct my paid attendants to tell them that all the tables are already taken.

ForumAdmin
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Re: ADSL2 Off Peak Downloads

Post by ForumAdmin » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:35 am

This has gone way off topic.

Thread closed.

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